On this edition of the Sunday Show with BizNews, Neil de Beer, the President of the United Independent Movement (UIM), says South Africans have lost political decorum. He slams the “everlasting circus that is being played by the ANC, the GNU partnership” – and calls it “a tremendous play of power, greed, innuendos, treachery, treason and self implosion”. De Beer describes how the BELA Bill protest saw “Cabinet (ministers) marching against itself”, and as “a deeper level of madness” the ANC marching – also against itself – for better service delivery. Delving into the underworld, De Beer talks about the assassination of kingin Mark Lifman in an environment of “pressure coming from inside the group and pressure from outside…global pressure…cartel pressure…governmental pressure”. And he calls the declassification of the IPID investigation into the assassination of Lieutenant-Colonel Charl Kinnear of the Anti-Gang Unit “a shocking indictment of…the people that represent us on the Thin Blue Line”. Lastly, he gives his take on Trump’s US Presidential victory and the role South African-born Elon Musk played in getting him elected.
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Edited transcript of the Interview
___STEADY_PAYWALL___
Chris Steyn (00:02.294)
It’s been a very dramatic week politically, internationally, regionally, and of course, here at home. Let’s hear from Neil De Beer, the President of the United Independent Movement. Welcome, Neil.
Neil de Beer (00:18.130)
Yeah, Chris, a Sunday that I think we can look back at a week. I think our show is starting to be known as The Week That Was. And I love it because we can summarize, dissect, and talk about the things that people do know. But from a Neil de Beer and Chris context, I think it just crisps it up to put people in context in layman’s terms. Plat op die grond. As true as what you can get it.
So, a very interesting week, domestically, Africanly, and internationally. You’re very right.
Chris Steyn (00:55.936)
Neil, I so appreciate you being here. I know you had chemo this week. I know you’re not feeling well. And I wanted you to rest this weekend, but you refused. So thank you so much.
Neil de Beer (01:09.832)
Well, Chris, you know, the amount of messages, the outpouring of support in my new fight against cancer—the third time now—and yes, you are right, I started my first chemo session yesterday. But sitting there, having these drips go in you and seeing the messages of love and the grace of God coming in on this side, it counters the cancer ideology. True to Neil, I am absolutely at peace. I’m even now more motivated. To those who don’t like me, remember one thing: I fear nothing except that the truth must be told. But I wanted to say thank you to every listener, every person, Chris, and you who inspire by sending me messages of strength. It’s going to be a hell of a 16-week ride. Maar hulle sê onkruid vergaan nie, bome groei – en die trosse moet gepluk word. But thank you very much. I won’t miss this interaction. No matter what, even if I have to be wheeled in. Thank you, Chris.
Chris Steyn (02:27.856)
The immortal Mr. de Beer. Neil, let us talk about the past week. I’d like to ask you, what happened this past week that made you really angry?
Neil de Beer (02:43.688)
Well, I think what makes me more angry is this absolute circus—this tremendous play of power, greed, innuendos, treachery, treason, and self-implosion of the one thing that I must tell you. When I was a younger man, so many of us here, those who write to us, who comment, come from this era I’m going to mention.
Irrespective of politics, there’s always been this decorum, this kind of ideology that politics, Parliament, and politicians were regarded once upon a time—it sounds like a fairy tale—as noble. If you had an ideology, it didn’t matter. If you were a socialist, you were a socialist. As jy ’n Nat was, was jy ’n Nat. If you were a nationalist, you were a nationalist. We had the Natte en die Sappe—and families nearly murdered each other because of the political ambiance of their following. You had the National Party, you had the Progressive Party, and if you were—like in America—a Republican or a Democrat, my God, you rose and flew the flag. In our country, we had a clear understanding of what that was.
Personally, we have lost political decorum. Totally. We have lost loyalty to what sits in your chest. Therefore, this week, when you sit back again and you look at the everlasting circus being played by the ANC, the GNU partnership, and now this massive declaration by Dali Mpofu.
Neil de Beer (04:56.914)
Dali Mpofu, the surrogate carrier of so-called justice, who represents the darkest of the dark—people that are accused of looting, of committing crimes. Now, some will say, “But Neil, everybody needs defense.” Yes, you need defense. But once you look at it and go beyond defense, it becomes ridiculous.
Here’s a man who defended the EFF, was the chairman of the EFF, swore allegiance to its CIC, its so-called “Commander-in-Chief” Julius Malema, stood in court battles assisting them, and at the same time protected Jacob Zuma in a multitude of cases, which, by the way, 80% he has lost. Now he makes a declaration he was a founder. Chris, he claimed to be a founder of the MK party. Yet without even sending a letter, apparently, to Julius to say goodbye, he goes on a podcast and says it’s a fact that he and Jacob Zuma had an inaugural meeting on the formation of MK. Now, you ask…
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Chris Steyn (06:26.970)
Can I interrupt you? Sorry, I just want to interrupt you there. I spoke to Mr. Jabulani Khumalo yesterday, the real founder of MK, and he bluntly calls Dali a liar. He said Dali only came on board at the launch of the party in Hyde Park. That was when he joined. Of course, yes, he joined MK before, but he was certainly not involved in being a founding member. He was never a founder member—and Mr. Khumalo provided all the founding documents to back that up.
Neil de Beer (07:05.980)
So he’s building his own Lego block.
Neil de Beer (07:09.574)
He’s claiming he’s the founder of Lego, yet the real founder of Lego is asking him for the patent.
So, if we can sit and—again, Chris, I’m sorry, I’m always harping on this—MK is the biggest magnet drawing in a consortium of atrocity, skullduggery, and tainted individuals. They are all being drawn into its carcass now.
And then Julius’ response, saying, “There are two more.” He mentions two more that will leave.
Chris Steyn (08:00.971)
Do you want to venture a guess?
Neil de Beer (08:01.082)
And I’m telling you, well, I think one of them is undoubtedly Ndlozi. I think so-called Dr. Ndlozi is not going to stay. I think he’s going to go. The other one, we’re still debating.
But my reason for bringing this up, Chris, is that there is an undeniable shift—a critical mass of people known not for their achievements but for their suspicions and alleged damaging of this country—and they’re going to MK. It’s making Julius’ party, the EFF, look diminished. And if you look at Julius’ demeanor, he’s defeated, Chris. He’s got a little bit more to say, a little more venom, but when you look at him, I think he knows the bell is going to toll, and I don’t think they’re going to make it. I think the MK machine is going to grow even bigger, and they’re going to launch whatever their plan is.
So, the Dali Mpofu move is very interesting. Again, Dali is taking a lot of intelligence and information from one side to the other. This is something we’ll need to watch within the internal politics.
But the shame and shock come when you see people who, knowing they’re going to leave, start causing such damage inside. A good businessman once told me, if you’re going to fire a manager or a high-ranking person, don’t give them leave time. Give them their leave pay but tell them to go immediately. Because while they’re sitting around, the damage they can cause is even worse.
Chris Steyn (09:57.902)
Interestingly, I looked at Mr. Mpofu’s statement in which he essentially declares allegiance to the EFF, the ANC, and MK, even though his memberships in the ANC and the EFF have lapsed. So it was a bit confusing, but as you say, people are no longer proudly a member of one particular party.
Neil de Beer (10:27.580)
Yeah, you know, I don’t know how good your Afrikaans is, Chris. But in Afrikaans, in the HAT—that is the most authoritative Afrikaans dictionary—they say, when you look at… if you look at a chest of drawers and there’s a lot of stuff there…
Neil de Beer (10:57.000)
Hulle sê dis ’n poespas van gemors. ’n Poespas. I am declaring that this political state of the republic is ’n poespas wat hier rond lê. And I’m sorry, it’s all in a chest of drawers labeled “politics.” How horrendous, how crazy—and we haven’t even really begun. So you’d better go look up that word if you don’t believe me.
Chris Steyn (11:27.488)
Nee, ek sal. Ek sal moet. Neil, what happened this past week that did give you hope, though?
Neil de Beer (11:36.232)
Well, it didn’t give me hope, but it gave me a sense of, okay, hang on—the BELA March. I looked at this BELA March, and, Chris, one must understand that every culture, every race, every creed has something to stand for. You know, we have certain values, things we stand up for, and at times, we unite under them. Sport in this country, for example, is just one of those things that unites us, because all of us inherently feel a sense of pride in rugby, soccer, cricket, netball, the Olympics—a place where we can maybe set politics aside. The BELA Bill will remain one of the most contentious issues we face.
What made me proud is that AfriForum, Solidariteit, Freedom Front Plus, PA, the DA—irrespective of their own opinions—decided to take a stand and ensure this issue isn’t forgotten. There was a lot of politics thrown into that march, from the choice of colors to the choice of the logo, which they didn’t display but instead used orange, etc.
But, Chris, it’s still a strange scenario. Dit maak net nie sin nie. You have Pieter Groenewald, Dr. Groenewald, and John Steenhuisen, and you have Gayton McKenzie, who are members of Parliament and part of the GNU Cabinet, marching because of the current situation around the BELA Bill. It seems there is refusal regarding Clause 4 and Clause 5, which were supposedly finalized with the President’s agreement. And at the same time, we have, as I call her, Siviwe…
Neil de Beer (13:50.374)
…a very dynamic lady, the current Minister of Basic Education, saying as recently as yesterday that she is waiting for the command to implement the BELA Bill. Now, if this isn’t deurmekaar to you, then please send me a WhatsApp, because you are a Minister in Cabinet marching against a decision signed by your President in your own Cabinet, while on the surface you’re saying…
Neil de Beer (14:17.318)
that you are marching against it, yet it’s already been signed. You then take that memorandum, as Cabinet ministers, but now you have to wear your hat as a leader of a political party associated with Solidarity and Kallie Kriel and that grouping. They hand the memorandum over to another Cabinet minister within the GNU, who on that day—you’ve had him on your program—the Honorable Gayton, is also saying…
Neil de Beer (14:46.150)
that he is absolutely opposing the BELA Bill. Three ministers standing there saying they totally disagree with the BELA Bill, while sitting in Cabinet.
So, this is yet another matter where Citizen X, or even someone like myself with a bit more insight, would say, I think again, die koeël is deur die kerk, die melk het op die grond geval—and now it’s mud.
I doubt this bill is going to get the reprieve despite this mass march of 10,000 people saying, “No, no.” But I doubt the President, Fikile, and their little “marchman” in the circus, Lesufi, are going to let that happen. That’s my opinion.
But it is an absolute, absolute conundrum to me that you have Cabinet ministers, political leaders in government, attacking a matter from outside.
Chris Steyn (15:49.634)
Well, Neil, talking about members of Cabinet marching against itself, am I going mad, or did the ANC also march against itself this week?
Neil de Beer (16:00.680)
That’s crazy. I mean, what are they drinking? You wake up one morning and decide you’re going to march because service delivery is bad, the communication of government listening to the people on the ground is terrible—but you are the government. Then you go to the street and demand better services, better healthcare, better, better, better. You’re the ones who were voted in, you moron.
So now you put on your ANC t-shirts, you grab the placards, walk around, and say, “We need better services.” You are the service. So no, Chris Steyn, you are not going mad. The world is mad. And here we are, and sometimes if we didn’t have Netflix to distract us, we would be mad too.
This is the conundrum we’re in—who do we vote for? Who is truly the real lion? Because all of these ones present themselves as lions, but they’re merely cats.
So again, Chris, the BELA Bill March—bizarre. And then the ANC March—clearly a deeper descent into madness. I fear that we’re now in a position after a national election that didn’t give anyone real power. I don’t think the ANC knows what they can or can’t do. They’re just assuming. The GNU partners are sitting there, a little lost, as they used to be the opposition that attacked the main government. But now they are the government. So what do they say? What don’t they say? I’m telling you.
This was predictable, Chris. This isn’t unknown. We knew that after the election, with all the fallout, the breakdown, the understanding, and the signing of a grand coalition, the GNU as it was sold to us would now enter this period, this Bermuda Triangle, where things are muddy, unclear, unresolved.
Neil de Beer (18:25.490)
They need to get through this, and it’s either going to be a Hilux bakkie or a blêddie Ranger that’s going to have to pull this government out of the mud. See, I was good! I didn’t choose one side or the other.
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Chris Steyn (18:39.628)
Neil, you’ve been familiar with gang activity in this country for decades. The assassination of Lifman reminded me of that. I’d love your take on the implications.
Neil de Beer (18:57.724)
Now, Chris, I’d say this week has been a very interesting one—not interesting in a positive way, but interesting in the sense of going down the rabbit hole into a dark side.
Two things happened this week in terms of crime. I’d like to give some perspective. What I’ve noticed, Chris, and I’d like to put it out there, is that it’s not a cliché, but there are a lot of people who now have opinions on these matters. It seems anyone with a phone and data access has become a crime reporter. It also seems that everyone who can read social media has an opinion on the facts of what’s happening in the underworld.
The cliché these days, even back in my day, is this notion of “if you live by the sword, you must die by the sword.” But my question is, have you ever actually carried a sword?
I take this seriously. People are dying, people are being assassinated, people are being murdered. This is a dark matter. We always say, “Stay in your lane.”
Neil de Beer (20:36.358)
So, one thing I’d like to tell people is that just because you see information coming through channels, it doesn’t mean you’re privy to intelligence. Intelligence is serious business handled by those with experience.
Gangsterism, violence, murder, extortion, and cartel business are not things Joe Soap or average citizens should involve themselves with.
This is a clerical statement I’m making. I come from the intelligence services. I am not an expert on gang violence or extortion, but part of my portfolio in the City is to understand what happens in crime circles and the intelligence surrounding it. So, I’m going to make the following statement to urge the Facebook warriors and keyboard analysts out there to be very, very careful…
Neil de Beer (21:57.348)
…on putting statements out there that could cause further harm and mayhem.
There is now a massive scenario involving authority and State investigations. Call them what you will, but they are still a group of very skilled investigators in this country. Chris, when you look at Mark Lifman and other people connected to these cases that we’re reading about on the front pages…
Neil de Beer (22:30.568)
You and I are probably receiving 127 WhatsApps from people all over the world saying, “Did you know?” And we have to listen to it. But at the end of the day, what’s happening within the Western Cape’s conclave—the current apparent battle between factions within the “dark side”—is significant.
If I may, I’d like to use a scenario to make this a bit more understandable. We have to take complex matters and simplify them.
Gangsterism and the Mafia-like operations of underworld figures are essentially businesses, like companies. Yes, they are companies, because, no matter what anyone thinks, their end goal is power, control, and, most critically, money—greed.
These players—the Lifmans, the Stanfields, the Modacks—are all known entities. They operate like corporate divisions within a company. They each have territories, specialities, and roles to play. So, without de-demonizing them, I’m giving you a perspective: they are a company. Their business, however, is extortion, drugs, firearms, assassination, and control over certain areas and industries. That’s their business. Within that business, there will be rivalry, Chris, just as Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Fanta, and Sprite compete. There’s even a new drink, Bashus, like the old cool drinks. They have rivalry. So, to make it as clear as possible, you’re dealing with an entity that doesn’t just act chaotically. They have missions, projects, individual ambitions—they’ve simply chosen the dark path to achieve them. When we look back and ask what role each person played, remember that the end goal is money, territory, and power.
Now, when two rivals like Pepsi and Coke go to war, they use advertising, marketing, and product showcases to gain market share. Here, that’s what’s happening—territorial disputes, court cases, affidavits. Who is the State witness? Who is not? Who will turn?
Neil de Beer (26:20.102)
Who’s going to talk? Who will reveal information? Who is betraying whom? This is what’s happening. When Mr. Lifman—when Mark was assassinated, it sent a message within this “company” that there is fear, rivalry, objectives, and intense pressure. This pressure comes from within the group and from external sources. We’re also beginning to see that this pressure isn’t just local, Chris. There’s international pressure, cartel pressure, governmental pressure.
Right now, as an observer with some intelligence background, though not claiming complete knowledge, I’d describe it as a pressure pot on a stove. The lid was tightly shut, and slowly, the pressure began to escape through small vents. I think the lid has now blown off because the vents weren’t enough. Over the past two years, we’ve seen pressures build, and today, we’re sitting in a boiling pot. As citizens, we would not want these matters to escalate into harm for the public. We hope the authorities are in control and that the death of one of these figures will not spiral into violence that affects ordinary people. My concern is that innocent people—who don’t carry swords—will be caught in this dangerous scenario.
Neil de Beer (28:47.802)
We hope the authorities will step up to restore calm, and that those within these criminal circles will understand that the vast majority of people in this country did not choose their path, their crime, and thus should be protected as anyone else. The police must fulfill their mandate to ensure safety and security. That is the situation with Mark Lifman.
We also now have the declassification of the IPID report. For those unfamiliar, IPID is the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, responsible for investigating internal misconduct within the police. After Lieutenant Colonel Charl Kinnear, an outstanding SAPS detective, was seconded to the Anti-Gang Unit (AGU) in the Western Cape, he was unfortunately assassinated.
The commander at the time was Major General Andre Lincoln, who has retired. He’s someone I knew well due to our shared history in the ANC and the struggle era, and as a friend. During that period, he was Kinnear’s commanding officer, and after Kinnear’s assassination, a government-sealed investigation followed. This investigation was extensive, involving interviews with high-ranking officers from AGU, SAPS, and the Hawks, but ultimately, the findings were sealed.
Neil De Beer (31:17.99)
The wife of Colonel Kinnear, though, has never given up. She has not stood back. She has demanded that there must be clarity, and she wants to know, obviously, who was behind the trigger, because the trigger person, 95% of the time, is not the person who paid for the trigger. It wasn’t the person. We want to know. We’ve had many of them. Lee Harvey Oswald—who was it? Chris Hani—who was it? And now you can say the same with Mark Lifman—who was it? And Charl Kinnear—who was it? The question of “who was it?” is more critical than “who done it.”
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We come from there, Chris; we understand. Documents were unsealed. What a dramatic revelation of the number of people that were involved, the number of accusations against people who did not do what they were supposed to do. Interesting. And thirdly, the people they are accusing are counter-accusing and saying, “No, no, we asked you for help.” I’ll say it; I’ll put it out there. I can be crucified; I don’t mind. If there’s one person in this whole affair that I can categorically tell you was hurt, damaged, and became the scapegoat, it was Major General Andre Lincoln. I say that vehemently here because you know who I am.
Chris Steyn (33:12.214)
I agree with you.
Neil De Beer (33:13.67)
And I sat there on many occasions, cup of coffee and a good biscuit. And I could see in the eyes of those people I mentioned that there was nothing more they could do. What’s going to happen now in the fallout is that some of the members are retired, so internal processes cannot happen anymore. It is now a question of whether they will prosecute those outside of the organization. Watch this space, because most of the people I refer to in that company, some of them in custody, are also intertwined in this IPID report on the death of Charl Kinnear. So, one can only hope that the truth will come out, that certain people who lost their lives did not die in vain, and that this will become a matter of public record, which now, Chris, it is. It’s a shocking indictment on what we believe the people who represent us on the Thin Blue Line should be. And again, I just want to make a statement.
The real police—the officers you and I dream about and support—we’ve got to think of them because it’s a scourging attack on police, but it must not be a scourging attack on all. Not all police officers in this country are in the dark; for them, we need to give a break.
Chris Steyn (34:49.762)
Right. Neil, lastly, I’m sitting here wondering, can you and I get away with not referring to Trump’s victory, or will our viewers never forgive us?
Neil De Beer (34:59.356)
No, they’re not going to forgive us. I don’t think so. I think we’ve got to, just quickly, if I may also say, in this week we saw the sporadic collapse of peace and stability in Mozambique…
Neil De Beer (35:21.958)
…the shutting of the Lebombo border for good reason because they nearly came over. And we pray, Chris, that our neighbor does not sneeze too hard, because we will catch the cold. So we can’t ignore that factor. Just to lump in there, in Mozambique, the situation is not stable at the moment. And a pity, Chris, because what a beautiful country. What a stunning country. I think, I don’t know, maybe you’ve had the pleasure of seeing it. I have. And I think they deserve peace, so just on that.
And then, boom. Boom. Chris, the absolute utter rubbish of saying it’s neck and neck, it’s 50-50. This is going to be called at the last minute—nonsense. Trump came up, did the dance, looked at the people, slapped Harris—figuratively, not physically—turned around, and he took victory. Victory in the sense that they weren’t even halfway through the elections, Chris, that I was monitoring and getting a little bit of side insight from the US. And there you are: The Donald has just become the 47th president and was the 45th.
I am unashamedly a Trump fan. I will take 60% of his character. I love it. The rest—he has to start correcting his way and manners of dealing with our women and ladies. I do not concur with that. Absolutely not. If I could remove that part, it would be perfect. But just the sheer confidence, the audacity of this man with his MAGA movement.
Elon Musk sitting out there and going, “I’m now going to take America to the 10th generation.” He’ll probably be opening a Donald Trump segment party office on Pluto very soon if he can. They’re looking at Mars, but the places he’s going to go—a South African being a huge part of…
Neil De Beer (37:51.026)
…getting Trump elected is also important for us.
What this will mean to South Africa is more important than what it will mean for the world because we are South Africans. I fear when Cyril—do you remember Cyril, hey? Where is he?
Neil De Beer (38:14.034)
Soekie, did you see his speech to Trump?
Is jy nou mal? He stands there and he says in a true Robert Mugabe speech, you will remember Robert Mugabe getting up when he was in La La Land and saying to Tony Blair, “You keep your England, and we will run our Zimbabwe.” That was a statement made by Robert Mugabe. En wragtig, Cyril Soekie Ramaphosa uses that exact frame of language and says that, and he says it to the camera, “Donald Trump, you keep your America, and we will run our South Africa; stay out of our country’s business.”
Neil De Beer (39:17.84)
Now, if there aren’t enough problems that we have, problems that we need to fix in our own country, and understanding that no matter how you paint this bloody zebra, it’s coming back black and white—the United States of America remains one of the largest economic blocs in the world, like it or not—that kind of language, that kind of speech, the sudden patriotism he’s now bringing out, is just going to irritate that person overseas and he’s going to get moerig. Because we already have so much to say. How do we now deal with America? When we are dealing with China, when we are dealing with Russia? When we took Israel to the Court of Justice of the world? No matter where you stand on that, I don’t care. I am a patriot of this country. I am a South African, and I would like to ensure that the economy of this country is not politicized. So if I were Soekie Cyril, I would shut up. I would stand back and do anything possible to ensure that our international relationships, no matter with which country, are to our benefit. And I think Cyril needs to wake up. Someone must wake him up and say, “You must ensure that when you meet, if you are granted time with Donald Trump, like him or not, that you make sure our relationship is on par.”
Neil De Beer (41:15.888)
And currently, making statements like that, I don’t think it’s the right thing. I think his advisors must become very prudent, and we need to fix that, because you know Trump had a very negative opinion about us in the first place.
Chris Steyn (41:34.102)
Indeed. Thank you, Neil. That was Neil de Beer, the president of the United Independent Movement, on this Sunday Show with BizNews. And I’m Chris Steyn.
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